Chapter 20
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency Development Center, Nevada
September 30, 2005, 0900 Pacific Standard Time
Sergeant Jackson arrived first at the conference room. He sat quietly as the rest of the team arrived, several with their breakfast in hand.
Charles stood and began the meeting. “This morning Sergeant Jackson will give us the presentation he promised us, on potential weapons for MAADS. I hope he will also have something to say on MAADS vulnerabilities. Sergeant Jackson, please bear with us if we ask rather basic questions. None of us have any real expertise in this area.”
Not exactly true, as Charles, as well as several of the others, knew a great deal about automated weapon systems, but he was trying to make sure Sergeant Jackson understood, he was the expert, and questions, no matter how pointed, were not intended to undermine that position.
Sergeant Jackson rose from his chair, notes in hand, and walked up to the whiteboard. The people in the room were, by now, familiar with his practice of speaking from handwritten notes, unusual in a group where a prepared presentation always involved at least some computer visual aids. Richard especially, was fond of cool animations, and the team looked forward to his presentations to see what new effects he would use.
Sergeant Jackson glanced at his notes, and began speaking. “I've discussed, with Charles and Richard, the requirements for arming MAADS. They have stressed to me the importance of using off-the-shelf equipment, so I have restricted myself to weapons either in production or that soon will be.
“The MAADS tactical robots and control unit, acquire targets using images. This means, we need to arm MAADS with a weapon that operates on a direct line-of-sight - some kind of rifle. Consequently, I eliminated explosive ordinance from consideration because it is always used against personnel in an indirect fire mode. I also eliminated some other ways MAADS might be used as a weapon, such as a mobile mine.
“In the Army, we call rifles and pistols, projectile weapons. A projectile weapon kills or disables an opponent by the projectile directly striking the target.”
Sergeant Jackson began writing on the whiteboard, while continuing to speak at the pace of his writing. “These are the main criteria used in selecting a projectile weapon. These criteria result from a combination of weapon and ammunition. Most projectile weapons can fire different types and calibers of ammunition, and there are different variants of the basic weapon like length of barrel, and different attachments available like muzzle flash suppressors.
“Range, muzzle velocity, and kinetic energy at impact, which is a combination of the mass of the projectile and its speed, are all relevant criteria when selecting a projectile weapon. The angle of entry also matters. A projectile that tumbles in flight will do more damage, but is less accurate. The physical structure and composition of the projectile will affect how it behaves after it impacts the target, and the amount of damage it causes.”
Jackson started to write a second list below the first on the whiteboard.
“These criteria affect the person using the weapon; weight and length of the weapon, weight of the ammunition, rate of fire, number of rounds in a magazine, recoil, muzzle flash, and loudness when the weapon fires.
“Other criteria, likely to be relevant to the selection, are reliability, amount and type of maintenance required, actions required in the event of a weapon malfunction, whether it maintains its sight alignment after use, and ease of reload.
“I have listed all the projectile weapons we regularly or occasionally use in the US Army, including some foreign-made weapons used by Special Forces, and then evaluated them on these criteria.”
Charles knew he needed to be careful how he handled Sergeant Jackson, but he also needed to move his analysis along. “Sergeant Jackson, I'm impressed with how thoroughly and systematically you have addressed the problem, but much of this information is too detailed for the people here. Why don't you just present your conclusions for discussion?”
Sergeant Jackson shuffled his notes, and continued speaking. “The standard US Army infantry rifle is the M16. It comes in a number of variants, including the M4, the standard weapon for Special Forces. It's lightweight and accurate to, between three and five hundred meters. The M16 is a good single shot weapon, but prone to reliability problems if it is not cleaned on a daily basis. Cleaning is particularly important, when the weapon is exposed to sand, and deserts are one of the environments where MAADS needs to operate. Weapon cleaning would be impossible with a deployed MAADS system. Consequently, I have eliminated the M16 and its variants from consideration.
“The two rifles with the top rating in my evaluation were the SIG and the Heckler and Koch G36.
“The SIG is a Swiss-made assault rifle with a good reputation for reliability and ruggedness. It requires considerably less maintenance than the M16, but all rifles require some maintenance.
“I gave the highest rating to the German-designed H&K G36 rifle. It doesn't require maintenance after firing, and is very tolerant of infrequent maintenance. It can also be fitted with a hundred-round magazine, which helps solve the reload issue. It's a little heavier than the M16, but weight is not an issue for the robots. The US Army has developed its own version of this weapon called the XM8.”
Sammy leaned forward, and asked, “Why does the American weapon require frequent cleaning while the Swiss and German weapons don't?”
“In order for me to answer that question, you need to understand how an automatic weapon works. An automatic weapon uses some of the exhaust gases from the cartridge firing to operate a mechanism that ejects the spent cartridge, and places a new cartridge into the firing chamber. With the M16, some of the burnt powder comes with the exhaust gases, and is deposited as residue on the mechanism. This residue accumulates, and will cause the gun to jam at some point. With the Swiss, and especially the German weapon, they have found a way to eliminate most of the powder residues, and you can fire it many more times before the residue accumulates to the point it jams the mechanism.
“The reason why they have weapons that solve the problem, and we don't, is these weapons are of newer design. There are newer generation American rifles under development, and I will get to them shortly.”
Charles was reassured Jackson was showing the analytical ability that justified his decision to get him back on the project.
Sergeant Jackson continued, “I also considered sniper rifles. They have longer range, heavier caliber ammunition, and are better for hitting vehicles and helicopters at longer distances. Sniper rifles are intended for use by specialists who take good care of their weapon, and all require regular cleaning and maintenance. With assault rifles, making sure a weapon works, even if its not well maintained, is a design criterion. That’s not the case with sniper rifles. In addition, all sniper rifles are made with small magazines. I therefore eliminated sniper weapons from consideration.
“If I were designing a weapon from scratch, I would choose the operating characteristics of the G36, combined with the range and caliber of the Barret, with a large magazine. No such weapon exists.
“I also considered infantry weapons under development, particularly the M29, also called the Objective Individual Combat Weapon. It’s not yet in service, but we have evaluated it.
“A primary design objective with the M29 is to inflict casualties on troops in hidden or protected positions like a bunker. It uses small caliber explosive ordnance as well as conventional projectile ammunition. MAADS will not use the capabilities of the M29 rifle except by changing the way it acquires targets, and so I eliminated the M29 and similar next generation weapons from consideration.”
Sergeant Jackson looked around at his audience. He clearly had their attention. No questions were forthcoming, so he continued with his analysis.
“I looked next at targeting systems. Standard infantry rifles have attachments that allow them to be targeted using one of three methods: visual images, infrared images, and laser designation.
“Visual or infrared targeting uses a passive sighting mechanism to aim the weapon, and may include optical or electronic image enhancement. Electronic enhancement is night vision equipment incorporated into a riflescope. There are also image enhancement - infrared hybrid scopes.
“Laser designation illuminates the target with the laser, such that the person using the weapon knows it's pointed at the target. This is the red spot you see in the movies when the police point their weapons at the bad guys. In next generation laser targeting systems, the weapon itself is able to detect the reflection of the laser from the target to establish its direction and range.
“As an infantry soldier, I'm familiar with targeting using visible light either in daylight or using night vision equipment. We don't normally use infrared targeting systems. Infrared is used primarily to target heavier weapons against tanks and other vehicles because they have such pronounced infrared signatures, although infrared targeting attachments are becoming available for infantry rifles. The term used is FLIR - Forward Looking Infrared. We could have used some infrared sights during the sandstorms in the Iraq war.
“Because MAADS uses infrared images to target, we need to incorporate an infrared scope, and I have arranged for us to get samples of the two in use in the US Army."
Sammy asked, “You mentioned image enhancement - infrared hybrid scopes. Could you explain how they work?”
Sergeant Jackson replied, “Night vision equipment works by enhancing the small amounts of visible light present at night into a recognizable image. It does that in two ways. One is by electronically amplifying the light. The other is by accumulating light over time. Infrared imaging works by shifting electromagnetic energy from the invisible infrared part of the spectrum into the visible.
“A hybrid scope combines both into a single image.”
Charles said, “Excellent work, Sergeant Jackson. Richard, do you have any additional comments?”
Richard looked at Sergeant Jackson, and gave a slight smile, hoping it conveyed that while he was about to knock a large hole in his analysis, it wasn't personal. He thought Jackson's analysis was good. It was just that his was better.
“In Sergeant Jackson's analysis, he is thinking in terms of a soldier looking down the sights of a rifle. He has replaced the human observer with the computer's software, which is now looking down the sight or through the sighting attachment. He has made a false assumption in his analysis, and he has overlooked a serious engineering problem.
“I'll ignore the 'ghost in the machine' assumptions underlying his analysis.”
Charles knew that most of the people in the room, wouldn't know what 'the ghost in the machine' referred to. Richard was advertising how erudite he was, and didn't understand how this alienated people. Charles didn't know whether to feel sorry for Richard or slap some sense into him. Both at the same time seemed appropriate.
Richard continued, unaware of his effect on the people in the room. “His false assumption is thinking the only way to aim a rifle is through its sight. There are many ways to aim a rifle, and through its sights is just a way that happens to be convenient and intuitive for a human operator.
“The engineering problem is none of the sights Sergeant Jackson refers to, is designed to be connected to an electronic system such as our computers. I assure you this is a far from trivial problem.
“If you think about why a rifle sight works, it's because the sight is in a fixed relationship with the rifle - pointing the sight at a target, results in pointing the rifle at the same target. In fact, any accurately measurable relationship, between the rifle and observer would work.
“This is what the weapon and camera assembly does, and it was the main reason I proposed it in the first place, although no one seemed to follow my reasoning at the time.
“We solve the problem, by engineering into the assembly the capacity to measure the relative position and inclination of the camera and the weapon. We will have to calibrate them against standard targets, but once we have, when the camera is pointed at a certain location, we will know the position the weapon has to be in, to point at the same location.
“A sight or scope on the rifle is not required. It's that simple.”
Charles looked across at the Special Operations soldier. His face was expressionless, and gave no indication, Richard's dismissal of his analysis had affected him. Charles decided to act as if nothing unusual had happened.
“Sergeant Jackson, the weapon you recommend, the G36 or the XM8, can you get one for us to test with the appropriate targeting accessories.”
“I'll speak to our armorer. I know he has several, but you need to get a senior officer's authorization.”
“Refer them to me, and I'll provide the necessary paperwork.”
“I'll do that.”
“That took longer than I anticipated. We will cover Sergeant Jackson's views on MAADS vulnerabilities, and ways we could protect against those vulnerabilities in next week's meeting. Thanks everyone.”
As people left the meeting, Richard hung back, as did Sergeant Jackson. Charles noticed, and decided he would walk by in a few minutes. If they were at each other’s throats, he would have to intervene.
Richard saw no reason to beat about the bush. “I liked your analysis of the problem, and your conclusions were sound.”
“So why did you let me present it before rejecting it?”
“You made the mistake almost everyone makes, which is to treat an existing solution as the problem you have to solve. I wanted to make the point to you, and to everyone else, that finding the right answer requires you deconstruct the current solution.”
Jackson smiled slightly. “You mean I didn't look beyond the kitchen.”
“Exactly! A lot of people would be upset to have their work pulled apart the way I did yours today, but you seem to have taken it well.”
Jackson looked him straight in the eye. “In your business how often do you get to make the same mistake?”
Richard was about to reply that in software development, repeating mistakes was the norm, when he realized where Jackson was going with this.
Jackson continued, “In my business, if you are lucky, you might get to make a mistake once. If you are unlucky, the first time will kill you. Someone who points out my mistakes before I make them, gets my attention. You might say my undying attention.”
Charles paused as he walked by the open door of the conference room, and saw the two men standing opposite each other in silence. He got the impression they had just reached an understanding.
Richard wanted Jackson to understand he had done a good job with his analysis, and said, “You're an intelligent man and probably assume most people think like you do and you are just better at it than other people. In fact, the ability to analyze all the possibilities, and progressively eliminate them until you arrive at the best solution, is unusual, and we don't know why only a few people know how to do it.”
“I didn't realize you were such a philosopher.”
“You think I started out in this biz. I was all set to become the world's leading authority on Wittgenstein. Unfortunately, career opportunities for Wittgenstein experts are severely limited, so I got into software development while I waited for a real opportunity. You know, like actors become waiters to fill in the time before their career takes off.”
Jackson realized Richard was making a joke at his own expense.
Chapter 21
September 30, 2005, 0900 Pacific Standard Time
Sergeant Jackson arrived first at the conference room. He sat quietly as the rest of the team arrived, several with their breakfast in hand.
Charles stood and began the meeting. “This morning Sergeant Jackson will give us the presentation he promised us, on potential weapons for MAADS. I hope he will also have something to say on MAADS vulnerabilities. Sergeant Jackson, please bear with us if we ask rather basic questions. None of us have any real expertise in this area.”
Not exactly true, as Charles, as well as several of the others, knew a great deal about automated weapon systems, but he was trying to make sure Sergeant Jackson understood, he was the expert, and questions, no matter how pointed, were not intended to undermine that position.
Sergeant Jackson rose from his chair, notes in hand, and walked up to the whiteboard. The people in the room were, by now, familiar with his practice of speaking from handwritten notes, unusual in a group where a prepared presentation always involved at least some computer visual aids. Richard especially, was fond of cool animations, and the team looked forward to his presentations to see what new effects he would use.
Sergeant Jackson glanced at his notes, and began speaking. “I've discussed, with Charles and Richard, the requirements for arming MAADS. They have stressed to me the importance of using off-the-shelf equipment, so I have restricted myself to weapons either in production or that soon will be.
“The MAADS tactical robots and control unit, acquire targets using images. This means, we need to arm MAADS with a weapon that operates on a direct line-of-sight - some kind of rifle. Consequently, I eliminated explosive ordinance from consideration because it is always used against personnel in an indirect fire mode. I also eliminated some other ways MAADS might be used as a weapon, such as a mobile mine.
“In the Army, we call rifles and pistols, projectile weapons. A projectile weapon kills or disables an opponent by the projectile directly striking the target.”
Sergeant Jackson began writing on the whiteboard, while continuing to speak at the pace of his writing. “These are the main criteria used in selecting a projectile weapon. These criteria result from a combination of weapon and ammunition. Most projectile weapons can fire different types and calibers of ammunition, and there are different variants of the basic weapon like length of barrel, and different attachments available like muzzle flash suppressors.
“Range, muzzle velocity, and kinetic energy at impact, which is a combination of the mass of the projectile and its speed, are all relevant criteria when selecting a projectile weapon. The angle of entry also matters. A projectile that tumbles in flight will do more damage, but is less accurate. The physical structure and composition of the projectile will affect how it behaves after it impacts the target, and the amount of damage it causes.”
Jackson started to write a second list below the first on the whiteboard.
“These criteria affect the person using the weapon; weight and length of the weapon, weight of the ammunition, rate of fire, number of rounds in a magazine, recoil, muzzle flash, and loudness when the weapon fires.
“Other criteria, likely to be relevant to the selection, are reliability, amount and type of maintenance required, actions required in the event of a weapon malfunction, whether it maintains its sight alignment after use, and ease of reload.
“I have listed all the projectile weapons we regularly or occasionally use in the US Army, including some foreign-made weapons used by Special Forces, and then evaluated them on these criteria.”
Charles knew he needed to be careful how he handled Sergeant Jackson, but he also needed to move his analysis along. “Sergeant Jackson, I'm impressed with how thoroughly and systematically you have addressed the problem, but much of this information is too detailed for the people here. Why don't you just present your conclusions for discussion?”
Sergeant Jackson shuffled his notes, and continued speaking. “The standard US Army infantry rifle is the M16. It comes in a number of variants, including the M4, the standard weapon for Special Forces. It's lightweight and accurate to, between three and five hundred meters. The M16 is a good single shot weapon, but prone to reliability problems if it is not cleaned on a daily basis. Cleaning is particularly important, when the weapon is exposed to sand, and deserts are one of the environments where MAADS needs to operate. Weapon cleaning would be impossible with a deployed MAADS system. Consequently, I have eliminated the M16 and its variants from consideration.
“The two rifles with the top rating in my evaluation were the SIG and the Heckler and Koch G36.
“The SIG is a Swiss-made assault rifle with a good reputation for reliability and ruggedness. It requires considerably less maintenance than the M16, but all rifles require some maintenance.
“I gave the highest rating to the German-designed H&K G36 rifle. It doesn't require maintenance after firing, and is very tolerant of infrequent maintenance. It can also be fitted with a hundred-round magazine, which helps solve the reload issue. It's a little heavier than the M16, but weight is not an issue for the robots. The US Army has developed its own version of this weapon called the XM8.”
Sammy leaned forward, and asked, “Why does the American weapon require frequent cleaning while the Swiss and German weapons don't?”
“In order for me to answer that question, you need to understand how an automatic weapon works. An automatic weapon uses some of the exhaust gases from the cartridge firing to operate a mechanism that ejects the spent cartridge, and places a new cartridge into the firing chamber. With the M16, some of the burnt powder comes with the exhaust gases, and is deposited as residue on the mechanism. This residue accumulates, and will cause the gun to jam at some point. With the Swiss, and especially the German weapon, they have found a way to eliminate most of the powder residues, and you can fire it many more times before the residue accumulates to the point it jams the mechanism.
“The reason why they have weapons that solve the problem, and we don't, is these weapons are of newer design. There are newer generation American rifles under development, and I will get to them shortly.”
Charles was reassured Jackson was showing the analytical ability that justified his decision to get him back on the project.
Sergeant Jackson continued, “I also considered sniper rifles. They have longer range, heavier caliber ammunition, and are better for hitting vehicles and helicopters at longer distances. Sniper rifles are intended for use by specialists who take good care of their weapon, and all require regular cleaning and maintenance. With assault rifles, making sure a weapon works, even if its not well maintained, is a design criterion. That’s not the case with sniper rifles. In addition, all sniper rifles are made with small magazines. I therefore eliminated sniper weapons from consideration.
“If I were designing a weapon from scratch, I would choose the operating characteristics of the G36, combined with the range and caliber of the Barret, with a large magazine. No such weapon exists.
“I also considered infantry weapons under development, particularly the M29, also called the Objective Individual Combat Weapon. It’s not yet in service, but we have evaluated it.
“A primary design objective with the M29 is to inflict casualties on troops in hidden or protected positions like a bunker. It uses small caliber explosive ordnance as well as conventional projectile ammunition. MAADS will not use the capabilities of the M29 rifle except by changing the way it acquires targets, and so I eliminated the M29 and similar next generation weapons from consideration.”
Sergeant Jackson looked around at his audience. He clearly had their attention. No questions were forthcoming, so he continued with his analysis.
“I looked next at targeting systems. Standard infantry rifles have attachments that allow them to be targeted using one of three methods: visual images, infrared images, and laser designation.
“Visual or infrared targeting uses a passive sighting mechanism to aim the weapon, and may include optical or electronic image enhancement. Electronic enhancement is night vision equipment incorporated into a riflescope. There are also image enhancement - infrared hybrid scopes.
“Laser designation illuminates the target with the laser, such that the person using the weapon knows it's pointed at the target. This is the red spot you see in the movies when the police point their weapons at the bad guys. In next generation laser targeting systems, the weapon itself is able to detect the reflection of the laser from the target to establish its direction and range.
“As an infantry soldier, I'm familiar with targeting using visible light either in daylight or using night vision equipment. We don't normally use infrared targeting systems. Infrared is used primarily to target heavier weapons against tanks and other vehicles because they have such pronounced infrared signatures, although infrared targeting attachments are becoming available for infantry rifles. The term used is FLIR - Forward Looking Infrared. We could have used some infrared sights during the sandstorms in the Iraq war.
“Because MAADS uses infrared images to target, we need to incorporate an infrared scope, and I have arranged for us to get samples of the two in use in the US Army."
Sammy asked, “You mentioned image enhancement - infrared hybrid scopes. Could you explain how they work?”
Sergeant Jackson replied, “Night vision equipment works by enhancing the small amounts of visible light present at night into a recognizable image. It does that in two ways. One is by electronically amplifying the light. The other is by accumulating light over time. Infrared imaging works by shifting electromagnetic energy from the invisible infrared part of the spectrum into the visible.
“A hybrid scope combines both into a single image.”
Charles said, “Excellent work, Sergeant Jackson. Richard, do you have any additional comments?”
Richard looked at Sergeant Jackson, and gave a slight smile, hoping it conveyed that while he was about to knock a large hole in his analysis, it wasn't personal. He thought Jackson's analysis was good. It was just that his was better.
“In Sergeant Jackson's analysis, he is thinking in terms of a soldier looking down the sights of a rifle. He has replaced the human observer with the computer's software, which is now looking down the sight or through the sighting attachment. He has made a false assumption in his analysis, and he has overlooked a serious engineering problem.
“I'll ignore the 'ghost in the machine' assumptions underlying his analysis.”
Charles knew that most of the people in the room, wouldn't know what 'the ghost in the machine' referred to. Richard was advertising how erudite he was, and didn't understand how this alienated people. Charles didn't know whether to feel sorry for Richard or slap some sense into him. Both at the same time seemed appropriate.
Richard continued, unaware of his effect on the people in the room. “His false assumption is thinking the only way to aim a rifle is through its sight. There are many ways to aim a rifle, and through its sights is just a way that happens to be convenient and intuitive for a human operator.
“The engineering problem is none of the sights Sergeant Jackson refers to, is designed to be connected to an electronic system such as our computers. I assure you this is a far from trivial problem.
“If you think about why a rifle sight works, it's because the sight is in a fixed relationship with the rifle - pointing the sight at a target, results in pointing the rifle at the same target. In fact, any accurately measurable relationship, between the rifle and observer would work.
“This is what the weapon and camera assembly does, and it was the main reason I proposed it in the first place, although no one seemed to follow my reasoning at the time.
“We solve the problem, by engineering into the assembly the capacity to measure the relative position and inclination of the camera and the weapon. We will have to calibrate them against standard targets, but once we have, when the camera is pointed at a certain location, we will know the position the weapon has to be in, to point at the same location.
“A sight or scope on the rifle is not required. It's that simple.”
Charles looked across at the Special Operations soldier. His face was expressionless, and gave no indication, Richard's dismissal of his analysis had affected him. Charles decided to act as if nothing unusual had happened.
“Sergeant Jackson, the weapon you recommend, the G36 or the XM8, can you get one for us to test with the appropriate targeting accessories.”
“I'll speak to our armorer. I know he has several, but you need to get a senior officer's authorization.”
“Refer them to me, and I'll provide the necessary paperwork.”
“I'll do that.”
“That took longer than I anticipated. We will cover Sergeant Jackson's views on MAADS vulnerabilities, and ways we could protect against those vulnerabilities in next week's meeting. Thanks everyone.”
As people left the meeting, Richard hung back, as did Sergeant Jackson. Charles noticed, and decided he would walk by in a few minutes. If they were at each other’s throats, he would have to intervene.
Richard saw no reason to beat about the bush. “I liked your analysis of the problem, and your conclusions were sound.”
“So why did you let me present it before rejecting it?”
“You made the mistake almost everyone makes, which is to treat an existing solution as the problem you have to solve. I wanted to make the point to you, and to everyone else, that finding the right answer requires you deconstruct the current solution.”
Jackson smiled slightly. “You mean I didn't look beyond the kitchen.”
“Exactly! A lot of people would be upset to have their work pulled apart the way I did yours today, but you seem to have taken it well.”
Jackson looked him straight in the eye. “In your business how often do you get to make the same mistake?”
Richard was about to reply that in software development, repeating mistakes was the norm, when he realized where Jackson was going with this.
Jackson continued, “In my business, if you are lucky, you might get to make a mistake once. If you are unlucky, the first time will kill you. Someone who points out my mistakes before I make them, gets my attention. You might say my undying attention.”
Charles paused as he walked by the open door of the conference room, and saw the two men standing opposite each other in silence. He got the impression they had just reached an understanding.
Richard wanted Jackson to understand he had done a good job with his analysis, and said, “You're an intelligent man and probably assume most people think like you do and you are just better at it than other people. In fact, the ability to analyze all the possibilities, and progressively eliminate them until you arrive at the best solution, is unusual, and we don't know why only a few people know how to do it.”
“I didn't realize you were such a philosopher.”
“You think I started out in this biz. I was all set to become the world's leading authority on Wittgenstein. Unfortunately, career opportunities for Wittgenstein experts are severely limited, so I got into software development while I waited for a real opportunity. You know, like actors become waiters to fill in the time before their career takes off.”
Jackson realized Richard was making a joke at his own expense.
Chapter 21
4 Comments:
karl popper would be the more apposite philosopher, Shirley.
Hi Blogger! I like your blog! Keep up the
good work, you are providing a great resource on the Internet here!
If you have a moment, please take a look at my site:
job portal
It pretty much covers job portal related issues.
Best regards!
I am here because of search results for blogs with a related topic to mine.
Please,accept my congratulations for your excellent work!
I have a auto insurance agency site.
Come and check it out if you get time :-)
Best regards!
http://www.adquity.com
Classifieds for our community. Buy, sell, trade, date, events... post anything. Adquity Classifieds.
http://www.adquity.com
Post a Comment
<< Home